The Prime Minister can fly to Beijing 

He wears several hats. A busy lawyer in the national capital, an author with an abiding interest in theatre, a social activist and a former journalist, Salman Khurshid jokes that he has had a stint in politics too. At a Round Table discussion in the National Herald office, he answered questions on a range of subjects. Not surprisingly there were several on the border standoff.

How serious is the standoff on the Chinese border?

This is undoubtedly the toughest challenge since 1962. But unfortunately, the Prime Minister does not even seem concerned. Any other world leader wherever he may have been would have found some platform to send out a message. But Modi is not interested. He is so pleased holding hands, hugging and walking on the beach.

What is China trying to do?

They have a fixed world view. And they are trying to draw the line for the next 10 years or so. They are telling us what is acceptable to them and what is not. Who will blink first? It is anybody’s guess.

If you were in a position to do so, what would you have advised the Prime Minister to do?

I would have asked him to fly to Beijing. If he could fly unannounced to Lahore and meet Nawaz Sharif, he surely can fly to Beijing and initiate talks at the highest level. China has changed a lot. It is no longer inscrutable. It is not like earlier times when we had a script and they had a script. China is much more westernised now, much more flexible. We can talk and even joke with them.

You are suggesting that there is no substitute to talking?

The problem is what I had once pointed out in Pakistan. I had stated that in dealing with Mr Modi they were dealing with a man who has never faced any defeat, and a man who has never listened to anyone with a different point of view. So, if they wanted to be cheer leaders of Mr Modi, they could talk to him but if they went as equal partners, they would have trouble.

Will the US come to our help if the situation escalates?

Nobody is going to help. Why will Japan help India against China? Why will America help us? It is too indebted to China. It will just enjoy the fun. Now even Russia will not help.

Are we then playing into the hands of the US?

The problem really starts with our industry. No matter who is in the Government, our industry keeps pushing us to do the bidding of the US. The United States is not a moral country in the sense Canada is under Trudeau. But Indian industry wants Prime Ministers to go to Washington D.C. and agree to their wish list.

There was a perception that the Americans were not too happy with UPA 2 ?

Americans will never be happy. Dr Manmohan Singh was actually perceived as pro-American. But he knew where to stop. He was not new to the pulls and pressures. And temperamentally he was against rushing into anything. We were careful and cautious with the US; in fact, we were far more tough with UK and for no rhyme or reason. But Mr Modi is just discovering the real world.

But then are you suggesting that the Nehruvian policy of Non-alignment can be still valid?

No. The old form of Non-alignment is no longer valid. But India has lost the opportunity to provide a new version of Non-alignment—a clear line between allies and strategic partners. Vajpayee tried and retreated. Modi is trying to make us allies of US. My conviction is India will not support him.

What is it that worries you the most about India’s current foreign policy?

I think I can share this with you. Yesterday I had a long chat with Pavan Varma and a very sober, very gentle and a very accommodative Subramanian Swamy. He said that they have been waiting for this moment for the last two and a half years and now there would be no looking back. Whether domestic or foreign policy of the past, ‘all the shibboleths’ as he called them, would all be destroyed, he said. My reply was that while the Government has the authority to coin a new foreign policy, I still do not believe that the policy they are pursuing is supported by a national consensus.

Whose foreign policy is being pursued then?

It is the foreign policy of his party possibly or that of the RSS. But this is certainly not the foreign policy of a confident, enlightened nation. Or else the Prime Minister would not have gone to Tel Aviv and declared that India and Israel were friends from birth. I am not sure if he meant the two leaders of the two countries or if he was talking of the two countries. Of course a large number of Indians may support Israel but there are also large sections which oppose the Americans or support Palestine, Nehru or Russia.

What do you foresee as the outcome?

This is a tricky foreign policy. The Prime Minister goes and says whatever sounds good to anyone, anywhere in the world. And he hugs people. And if you hug people, they will naturally say nice things about you. But later they will also wonder, ‘what is wrong with this man, why is he hugging me all the time!’ But I do not know what will happen. The Arabs themselves are in a huge mess. The Americans are also in a huge mess…

Are their parallels between Hindutva and Zionism?

There are evidently common threads. But we are demeaning ourselves by reducing ourselves to the level of Israel. Ours is a great nation but the PM was so thrilled while he was walking on the beach and while he was being taken to the sea ! Frankly, every time I see him hugging people I am reminded of Dilip Kumar’s jig to the song ‘Sala Mai to Sahab ban Gaya’!

But judging by his bear hugs, Prime Minister Modi would appear to be a very popular leader …

There are ways of hugging people, of shaking hands and accepted facial expressions while doing so. But I must say he has got it all completely wrong. I actually believe that not only is our foreign policy in a mess but we are in great danger of a huge explosion sooner rather than later. Of course, Mr Modi can say anything to anyone in India and they will believe him. But the world will not. For the world, he may not have delivered.

But surely countries like the US, Israel, UK or France want to sell us arms and weaponry and the Prime Minister is obliging them…so to that extent they should be happy?

They are desperate for jobs and to sell their systems, planes, drones and whatever they have. So yes, they will be happy. But in my assessment, the prime Minister is rapidly, very rapidly leading us to disaster. After all, what is he trying to do? He is trying to make us into a nation that buys weapons and then sells weapons. You can manufacture the F-16 in India but how many F-16 does the IAF need? What happens after that need is fulfilled? So we will also sell the jets and weapons to countries at war and our foreign policy will be based on who buys weapons from us and who sells weapons to us? This is a sliding slope and an extremely dangerous slide at that.

You went to the UN with Atal Bihari Vajpayee at a critical time…

Yes, I hugged him. And I lost an election because of that.

But do you think it’s a good idea to have the Foreign Office become a part of the PMO?

There is no Foreign Office. There are only clerks there. I will be honest. The PMO has always had control of the Foreign Office. And when it comes to the P-5 (the five permanent members of the UN security Council), the Prime minister knows a lot more than anyone else in the country. There are four or five civil servants who tell the Prime minister that he alone needs to know about the P-5; nobody else needs to know anything.

And Prime Ministers generally get all chuffed about this—gosh, they know how smart I am . Then they leave it to the PM. But PMs—Vajpayee, Rao, Dr Singh whoever----would let others to handle countries other than P-5. Even when there is a crisis as we had in Sri Lanka, the Foreign Minister and the MEA were allowed to function fairly independently.

Also, since the establishment of the office of the National security Advisor(NSA), the foreign minister’s importance has been considerably reduced. There is this man, a substitute of the foreign minister who, rightly or wrongly, claims knowledge of global affairs. Rightly or wrongly.

So, it is the NSA who now calls the shots?

There is a Chief Minister and there is a Foreign Secretary (Subrahmanyam Jaishankar) who is the Foreign Minister and who hopes to become the next NSA. We don’t know if he is going to be the next NSA. But he is beholden to the current NSA (Ajit K Doval). He is a very bright officer. But if you have read Dr Faustus, he is (very similar) to Faustus.

(To be concluded)